I know there were some flaws in my explanation (especially since he diverted every time my analogies got too uncomfortable for him) but I think that my points actually hold up pretty well.
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:10 PM
does SBI have an economic viability paper? Being that SBI is a donation & not sustainable, how can make it a sustainable operation? It's interesting
josephsavageToday at 8:12 PM
it is sustainable
it's not a donation, it's a subscription. each SBI unit is 'backed' by 1-2 SP (currently about 1.6) depending on our sustainability metrics
units 'earn' potential rshares that are banked until posting and then delivered to post when enough are banked to exceed a threshold
we've stress-tested our delivery, drawing VP down all the way below 10% and recovered from that back up above 60%
over 700,000 upvotes delivered
the #read-me-first covers the basics, and then I can point you to our sustainability series, but that series is hard to follow without context on how everything actually works
the only 'donation' aspect is that you sponsor somebody else when you enroll, which 'donates' units to the account you sponsor
so 50% of subscription value is self-funded, 50% is crowd-funded, though obviously self-funded accounts have a higher concentration than fully crowdfunded accounts
about 1/3 of accounts have some blend of self/crowd-funding and 2/3 of accounts are wholly crowd-funded (all units sponsored by others)
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:22 PM
Steem makes money from what? If people don't keep investing more money into it, what else is it used for?
Where is actual profit made?
josephsavageToday at 8:22 PM
well that's a separate issue
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:22 PM
Seems like a ponzi
josephsavageToday at 8:22 PM
I don't have control over the economics of Steem, only the economics of my own program on Steem
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:22 PM
an SBI base on a ponzi doesnt seem a separate issue
josephsavageToday at 8:22 PM
money is a ponzi
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:22 PM
hrm no.
A business that makes money is NOT a ponzi
josephsavageToday at 8:23 PM
not what I said
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:23 PM
merely money and no profit IS a ponzi
josephsavageToday at 8:23 PM
if the Steem base proves unsustainable, then SBI would go down with it
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:23 PM
so what's sustainable about it? you just said it's not.
Where is the profit that makes it sustainable?
josephsavageToday at 8:24 PM
Steem?
whether a monetary base is sustainable or a ponzi scheme is a question of scale and distribution
if Steem is a ponzi, then bitcoin is a ponzi
Social Security is a ponzi
guaranteed benefits pensions are a ponzi
but if those collapse the whole global economy collapses, so we look the other way and hope there will always be more cash flowing into them
the whole stock market is a ponzi powered by Fed money. real businesses earning real profits, sure, but their valuations are unsustainable without freshly printed dollar
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:26 PM
invalid circular reasoning arguments.
you are dodging the question
josephsavageToday at 8:27 PM
so it's not a question of whether Steem is a ponzi, but whether there will be (long-term) more demand for it than there is supply
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:27 PM
"if this is nothing then this is nothing and that is nothing so im dodging the question"
josephsavageToday at 8:27 PM
if demand exceeds supply, value will go up, and the system is sustainable. if it doesn't then it will collapse
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:27 PM
You just literally defined a ponzi scheme
"Whether there will be more demand later than there is now. Profits? whats a profit?"
josephsavageToday at 8:28 PM
no, there's actually a literal definition of a ponzi scheme that requires centralization and control
what i defined is any unbacked monetary asset
what gives money it's value? people want to hold it. why do they want to hold it? because it has value
but they keep printing more money so it keeps losing value
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:28 PM
Social security is not a ponzi compared to Steem. Social security is funded by taxes, which are shares of profit making enterprises. UNLIKE Steem
josephsavageToday at 8:28 PM
how does it maintain value? people want it more than the alternatives
actually social security is funded by payroll taxes
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:29 PM
NO, thats not what gives money it's value
josephsavageToday at 8:29 PM
oh really? tell that to the government printing off money in Venezuela
it's worthless because people don't want it
all economic systems are built on trust
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:30 PM
the underlying assets of the economy generally give it it's value., it's reliability, and it's state enforcement of use. Then the replacement factor of others, again which normally comes down to state enforcement of use
josephsavageToday at 8:30 PM
fiat systems are built on trust in governments and their authority
crypto systems are builts on trust in code or technology
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:30 PM
anyway, you are again dodging the question with endless irrellevant circular reasoning leading to nowhere
josephsavageToday at 8:31 PM
okay... so the underlying assets of the economy
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:56 PM
then, a guy like yourself comes along, he wants to pay out $4 each to the greedy savages
josephsavageToday at 8:56 PM
if businesses create value using the technology, then the technology (and its native currency) have value
if businesses do not create value using the technology, then both technology and currency become worthless
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:56 PM
2 million people. 1 million greedy savages, $4 each = $4 million a year that has to come from somewhere.
josephsavageToday at 8:56 PM
if SBI becomes the only reason that anybody ever buys STEEM, then it's a ponzi scheme
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:56 PM
+300k
= 4.3 million
so, where does your 4.3 million that needs to be paid into Steem come from?
You have no idea
= Bankruptcy
josephsavageToday at 8:57 PM
if SBI becomes an integral part to the other value the technology adds to regular businesses, then it's not a ponzi scheme (and completely sustainable as long as those businesses actually create value)
as long as Steem is sustainable, then SBI is
you're right that's Steem's sustainability depends on real businesses making real profits using the technology
I don't dispute that at all
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:58 PM
again you are making believe and dodging the issue in fairy tale lalaland
I'm interested in sustainable SBI models
you clearly dont have one
You should focus on one.
probably one can be made
how? I don't know yet
I'm interested to see it
josephsavageToday at 8:59 PM
probably if you went back and reread everything, you would see that I actually make sense and you're being obstinate
Aoecoin.ioToday at 8:59 PM
No, it didnt make any sense
Of course I understand it. But it doesnt show how it can pay for the 4.3 million
you should make some spreadsheets and financial reports. You clearly havent'
josephsavageToday at 9:00 PM
I have actually. A lot
we did over $100,000 in revenue last year
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:00 PM
merely talking about fantasy value creation that never gets monetized does not magically conjur up 4.3 million
josephsavageToday at 9:01 PM
you're insisting on treating it as a closed system
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:01 PM
who is we? what is we
josephsavageToday at 9:01 PM
WE is SBI, the group whose server you are in, the people who are patiently trying to explain while you redirect everytime the argument gets to close to proving you wrong
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:01 PM
no, you are insisting that 4.3 million $ just falls from the sky
I'm not wrong. I would love to be
josephsavageToday at 9:02 PM
I said that actual businesses have to make actual profits for the technology to have value
I said that the technology has to have value for the currency it uses to have value
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:02 PM
You missed something. Those actual businesses making profits, they have to ALSO pay that 4.3 Million into Steem
if they don't, you are still bankrupt
josephsavageToday at 9:02 PM
I said that the currency it uses has to have value for a system that controls how some of it is distributed to have value
where in that did I say it's magic money that falls from the sky?
actually they don't
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:03 PM
you are manipulating use, as "value" as if its 4.3 Million dollars in actual cash from profits. But its of course absolutely NOT
josephsavageToday at 9:03 PM
they only have to pay enough in to buy what people want to sell
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:03 PM
you are pretending the 4.3 million just comes from the sky
josephsavageToday at 9:03 PM
no, you are
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:03 PM
you have not ever suggested where it might come from
josephsavageToday at 9:04 PM
i'm giving a perfectly rational explanation for where it comes from
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:04 PM
no, you are not
josephsavageToday at 9:04 PM
real businesses with real profits spending a small part of their profits on technology that drives their business
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:04 PM
4.3 million needs to be paid out. So where is it coming in from?
Show me the 4.3 million in income Steem will earn
josephsavageToday at 9:04 PM
I worked for a consulting firm that did $40million per year in revenue
every penny of that revenue was a cost center to the clients
those clients did $400 million per year in revenue
and every penny of that revenue was a cost center to their clients
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:05 PM
You obviously didnt learn anything about basics in finance there sadly. You are refusing to answer any questions
Consultants that never answer questions :smile:
josephsavageToday at 9:05 PM
was that a ponzi scheme?
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:06 PM
you are dodging with irrellevant strawmen again which dont apply
josephsavageToday at 9:06 PM
actually, they do apply
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:06 PM
dodging refusing to answer the question because you have nothing to go on and no answer
josephsavageToday at 9:06 PM
one person's cost center is somebody else's revenue
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:06 PM
so manipulate dodge and spin instead
josephsavageToday at 9:06 PM
if the technology (or money spent into the crypto to use it) is a cost center, then it's covered by the profits of businesses built on it
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:07 PM
its mere manipulation and wrong, but you could at least get some basic financial model which you clearly dont have, from that example, which would help your case
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:07 PM
I put in $150. I will take out $150. i will continue to use the service.
The service costs you money. Now you have to come up with 4.4 million
so whwere is it going to come from? You dont even have a clue to a single $
josephsavageToday at 9:08 PM
you've confused steemit with steem with STEEM with SBI
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:08 PM
propagandists should never be in charge of finances
josephsavageToday at 9:08 PM
so I don't know which thing you're asking about right now?
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:09 PM
SBI different then steem. So its 2 ponzis now
SBI is another million thrown on floor
some suckers throw 1 million on floor. 2 million savages come to raid it
we are back to same thing
you have any 4.4 million of income for that? From where
josephsavageToday at 9:10 PM
when I use analogies they're straw men, but when you use analogies they're relevant?
you come into my house, you malign my program, you insult my background and intelligence
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:10 PM
This is the 100% EXACT analogy
you arent using analogies nor finances you are using fakeouts that have nothing to do with paying for it
josephsavageToday at 9:11 PM
you accuse me of strawmen when I try to explain from first principles. you accuse me of strawmen when I try to explain by analogy
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:11 PM
you are merely manipulating and dodging the issue of paying for it
josephsavageToday at 9:11 PM
you don't understand the technology or anything built on it
your accountant pays taxes
you pay your accountant
your boss pays you (or your customers pay you)
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:11 PM
its irrelevant to the financial model and you have nothing to even suggest as to where the 4.4 million will come from
josephsavageToday at 9:11 PM
every single step of payment happens because there is VALUE
Aoecoin.ioToday at 9:12 PM
you are totally clueless to how to pay for this
no one pays taxes to steem, another manipulation irrelevant
josephsavageToday at 9:12 PM
!ban @Aoecoin.io
MEE6BOTToday at 9:12 PM
Aoecoin.io#7477 has been banned
Reason: Unspecified
josephsavageToday at 9:12 PM
fin
anybody that wants to can read the whole argument and realize that my analogies actually follow pretty well
it's not magic money. that came from him
it's STEEM inflation (rewards pool) and the value comes from value profit-making businesses attribute to Steem (the blockchain) as an important cost center
and the value that I didn't get to (but extremely important with respect to Steem) - the value of the existing user-base for new bases
but he is right about one thing... if there isn't value to the technology (or any blockchain technology) then everything built on it will go to zero
which is why there are less than a dozen crypto currencies that I have long-term commitments to
