Yeah, we shouldn’t act like pagans that’s for sure. But then we need to be “skeptic” about it. The drink coffee argument is not good. Because again, pagans used to sleep and eat… And when it comes to Christianity the level of arguments are without a doubt “drink coffee” Like the birthday, once you squeeze it all and let go of assumptions, the only thing is that “the goats where outside”
In the ancient world it’s safe to say that other than the Hebrews, all the other cultures practise human sacrifice, canibalism (most on that one), kill off the old, let the sick die, kill babies, worshiped trees and bulls and statutes. The sun. Had a bunch of rituals. Sacrificed animals…
(The story of the priest who cut down the tree in the nordic place, they where about to perform a human sacrifice under it. )
So there is a world of diference. One thing would be, to keep a ritual the romans had. And now say it is Christian. That would be pagan behaviour. Or to worship a tree. It is another thing to drink coffee. But even like this, when you really look, the coffee is not even there.
Saturnalia, has some similarities with carnaval. Zero with Christmas, either than the month and quite a bit to carnaval. Haven’t looked into ti’s origins. But that’s never mentioned.
I understand where they are coming from. That’s why I’ll try and end this myth as much as possible. They are coming from assumptions. Fake assumptions that are fed to us, day and night. And it has huge consequences.
Who made trees? Is there any teaching about not having plants in your home? (there is a lot of ever green, again, where I live many trees and plants never go brown or empty) Think it’s kinda nice to have trees and plants inside. It helps to air and everything.
If you worship a tree (like many people do now a days) you ar worshiping the creation and not the Creator. That’s diferent form drinking coffee. If you kill babies in the womb… that’s diferent as well. That group who follows the dark one, even say it’s their “ritual”
(Don’t know if you know about this guy, he talks a lot about that particular ritual: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-satanist-and-high-wizard-fight-abortion-with-spiritual-weapons/)
(By the way, Odin and so was just a prt of it. Like in Greece/ Rome people talk about the Zeus’es but the mina form of religion was the fire in the home of dead people. Also with the worshiping of trees and bulls etc… Hindus to this day have the cow )
That’s one thing. If Christians had taken over a pagan holiday, it would be one thing. The drinking coffee, I think is very, very dangerous.
Yeah the meat example is also good. (Think even paul talks about that no?) But again, in this case, there isn’t even meat to eat. Is truly made up.
Think trade, craft, commerce and so on, are very good. I said consumerism in a extreme way, and when it’s used to fill a all inside, that will never be filled by material gain. Also when it becomes THE one metric people judge their and other’s lives one. When it obfuscates the meaning of Christmas for example. I think it could be re ordered on the priority list. But, yeah I’m all for trade and craft.
heheh Well, I haven’t been to mass or anything. And I think I said, a year ago I was an agnostic. And had that Catholic bad, assumption. It was the very last faith I looked into to try and see which one was the correct one. (Because there can only be one true one)
As such, I’m at the gates of Catholicism looking in. Somedays I almost enter, some days I go a bit further away. At the gates, ready to go in.
And again, I’m not too confortahbe talking about doctrine out loud. But short answer, no I don’t. I think sola fide is wrong. (As much as I would like it to be correct)
Trust me, I know the Catholics came later thing. With was paganise and so on… But hehhe Again, we have no evidence for that at all. And quite a bit on the country.
So it would be with Constantine right? Because after that, I think everyone agrees Catholicism was around from there on?
There was an idea of the “primitive church” that kind started with the orthodox shcicism, when they wanted “more power” 1000 years after. But i really gained visibility in the protest revolution, coupled with the “dark legend”. And it really picked up steam in the French revolution, when religious Jesus and historic Jesus, also came into popular conscionous. The also killed tens of thousands of priests and Bishops and normal catholics by the way. Changed what was left…
But then, we need to go back o those first 300 years and see what was different in this primitive church.
Funny enough, the argument usually jumps to Constantine or “it was Christian not Catholic…” But once we look and really study the Church Fathers. It’s hard to find diferences. Also in archaeology and the Christian catacombs and all, into account…
There are the saints, all the doctrine, devotion to the Virgin Mary (She would have an important role on her son’s church wouldn’t you say? The woman who was chosen by God to have His son?) Even Christmas on the 25th is there. We have the bishops, the popes all of it. This is a bit foggy, but we kinda have a lineage of all bishops/ priests to Jesus and the apostoles. Quite foggy, because it’s a 2000 years institution, who comes from antiquity. ie The Bishop of Braga in Portugal has the direct lineage, documented interrupted to S. Jack. S. Peter the first pope is in the bible. Jesus makes him the leader of the church, the bishop of Rome. We have pagan sources where they use the term Catholic. It’s all there. (Catholic mean universal, has open to everyone)
Cut to Constantine and Nicea. Constantine only stoped the persecutions. Nothing more. there was not political move nor anything, most of the Roman elite where pagans. And some after tried to make the empire pagan again. Constantine lost aproval for doing it. He became emperor for a miracle like event, so he kept his word and made it legal. (his mother was a Catholic as well)
Nicea: Well, we have the documents of it, all the davinci talk, always fail to address that point. Constantine was present but had nothing to say.
More important, 350 years of full on presectiion by the biggest empire ever and Christians remained strong and loyal. Torture of all kinds, and still they remain. But then puff, by magic they all accepted paganism… Just because we’re told, it was for power and they were bad.
And they changed the bible… I mean… It’s a joke. The canon wasn’t even mentioned in Nicea, by the way. They would keep, things that would go against their teachings? Well, its either changed or not. If it is, then protestants don’t have a bible since it is a Catholic book. And if it’s not… for 15000 years, with some of the biggest minds, never noticed something was wrong? And if it was a scam, why not change it all the way?
I wrote songs about the pagan and evil catholics and so… But, looking in a serious manner, with as much open mind as possible It really does not hold up. But every best seller, assumes it.
Past Nicea. Again, we’ve all heard the evil pope burning books.
It’s the oldest institution in History. 200 years and it came from an incredible violent and hostile time. From day one, it has been fighting all kinds of enemies. Even right after Nicea, the heresy of Araanism showed up. And the Roman empire was still hosttie to it. Not to mention al the pagan tribes and so on. Or the Muslims a bit later. So in all this time, there has been many errors. I’ve made errors in a couple decades and I was born in a rather stabilised world… so in 2000 years… it’s a given. There have been bad popes as well. And on top, some people used a Catholic facade to make some bad acts as well.
Having said that: Do you have a papal bull to show me? Where the modus operandi of the Church was burning books and surpressing history?
In the protestant revolution, immense works of art where destroyed, even churches and cathedrals. Statues, paintings all of it. Bibles, from centuries before where burned. (Specially in Latin) Then all their churches was built by catholics ad the protestants took over. Calvin was basicly a war lord, who was commanding executions and looting from Swaziland.(And we have documents of it) Not even great full for Catholics preserving the bible for 1500 years, against all odds. Yet, that’s not mentioned , one needs to dig quite a bit. Henry the 8, I mean… it was destruction and suppression on the next level. Where are the davinci codes about it? Even in modern text books? it’s nuts. Another thing that happened in this fine times, was that the “black legend” was created. Where A LOT of this anti catholic rhetoric comes from. Even the King of Spain said, he was ready fo fight any enemy but he never could had imagine this (meaning the invention of propaganda, that while the printing press was invented under catholic patrons, the protestants took it over and started the “dark legend”)
But back to the books. It is worth noting that we have a lot of the Roman and Greek culture. It’s incomparable to any other empire of antiquity. Usually when an empire falls, there is a huge gap of “documentation” and “culture” and so… ie: we know very, very little about the Persian empire. yet we know much about Roman / Greek because during the chaos of a fall of an empire and content attacks from the barbarie, the Church managed to preserve their legacy. That’s right, if it wasn’t for Catholics we wouldn’t even have the works of Aristotes.
Some other points that are usually forgotten, the Church: created universities, hospitals and I do mean the concept as well. Promoted studies off all kinds, from sciences to the arts. It ended human sacrifice when the world was deep into it. It ended slavery (people get all up for his one. But it’s just a fact. In Catholic places there was no slavery during the middle ages. This one, not even Davici Cs try to deny it. There was slavery in the muslim empire and in the pagan kingdoms. Not there. The Scandic only stoped slavery once they converted for example. It then came back after the protestants, funny enough. But that’s a huge topic on to it self. The more it gained followers in Rome, the less slaves there where) It cared for the old for the first time in history… It also ended racism, saying all (Catholic universal) are worthy of having their soul saved. Even the Hebrew had the chosen people thing. They risked their lives, to bring the alphabet to other places in the world. Who where still, doing human sacrifices. Alphabet, hence book and history and also, farming, house building, the wheel, and more importantly the Gospels. The story of catholicism in Japan alone is fascinating. Know how many where killed and prosecuted there? And had their books burned, once the embers changed their minds? How many where boiled alive, so that the people could continue to listen to the word?
In short Catholicism has been the most attacked faith on record and continues to this day. But we only talk about those mysterious book burnings. Like they where born with some privilege, and where just evil people. Also, the fact that the “group form the other guy” focuses all their hate and energy on anti catholic, tells me, it must be for some reason. All their cerimonies are Catholic inversions.
Also, all the miracles on record are Catholic ones. real ones, not the faith healer on a private jet, kinda thing. If there wasn’t for the Church there would be no Christianity… The sopping of the mour invasion of europe alone is crazy.
It’s the only Church that can even claim that was founded be Jesus Christ. And it all seems to make it so. Including the hate, and attacks it gets.
RE: Is Christmas a pagan celebration? (Part 4)